57 Replies Latest reply: Dec 24, 2013 8:25 AM by roomraider RSS

Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?

fpbear

I want to get rid of the DECA boxes on one, or both ends because I recently ran an Ethernet cable to my home entertainment center.  I would like to be able to just plug in the Ethernet to the back of the DVR.  Can I do this and still use Whole Home sharing of recorded DVR programs, or does this require the DECA boxes?  I really want to get rid of these extra wires and things to plug in.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    litzdog911

    You could, but it's not supported, and it's not recommended. DECA coax networking keeps the Whole Home DVR video streaming traffic off of your home network.  With DECA coax networking, the DVRs only use your home network for internet access (e.g. OnDemand downloads).   Best to leave it alone. 

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    fpbear

    Thanks litzdog.  The ethernet portion of the DECA stopped working, which is another reason I got frustrated with these things.  The DVRs can see each others recordings, and all 3 lights are green on both.  Is there any reason to use the Ethernet ports on the DECA?  I am thinking to run my standard Ethernet to the DVR instead of via the DECA, and use the DECA only for sharing recordings.  Maybe I have a defective DECA unit.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    dcd

    What you propose will not work.  The DECA system that shares recordings in the Whole Home system uses the Ethernet circuits within the receivers.  If you connect an Ethernet cable to any receiver (except the HR#4) it will disable the DECA system.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    litzdog911 and dcd are correct about not supported. I'll play devils advocate. I do not use DECA and technically speaking using your home Ethernet will be better in the long run. When I first got Whole-home I had to convince DirecTV to turn on the Whole-Home because the tech insisted it wouldn't work. When it did they were astonished and wonder what wizardry I had concocted. Long story short, if your house is wired, Ethernet is much easier to deal with then DECA.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    litzdog911
    Quote:    Originally Posted by sirkgm14vg 

    litzdog911 and dcd are correct about not supported. I'll play devils advocate. I do not use DECA and technically speaking using your home Ethernet will be better in the long run. When I first got Whole-home I had to convince DirecTV to turn on the Whole-Home because the tech insisted it wouldn't work. When it did they were astonished and wonder what wizardry I had concocted. Long story short, if your house is wired, Ethernet is much easier to deal with then DECA.

     


    Not true.  Using DECA will keep the Whole Home video streaming traffic off of your home ethernet network.   So why would using purely ethernet be "better"?   And DECA uses the already existing satellite cables, so no extra cables are needed.  What could be simpler?

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    dcd

    And, possibly most importantly, some of the currently available set top boxes have no Ethernet port, so "in the long run" you're better off with a standard conventional supported Whole Home DVR system using the DECA system.  If excessive cables etc were a problem, if you put together a system composed of HR34, HR24 and C31, you wouldn't need any DECA modules at all and each set top box would have but a single cable, except the HR34 which would have the coax signal cable plus the Cat5 Ethernet cable to connect the system to the router.

    • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
      gr8ful2u2

      dcd wrote:

       

      And, possibly most importantly, some of the currently available set top boxes have no Ethernet port, so "in the long run" you're better off with a standard conventional supported Whole Home DVR system using the DECA system.  If excessive cables etc were a problem, if you put together a system composed of HR34, HR24 and C31, you wouldn't need any DECA modules at all and each set top box would have but a single cable, except the HR34 which would have the coax signal cable plus the Cat5 Ethernet cable to connect the system to the router.

      Which set top boxes have no internet? Please specify, otherwise it sounds like conjecture.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    If Ethernet ports are disappearing on the new boxes, that's a problem in itself. However, if you only using DECA to switch traffic between the set top boxes, it seems like a little bit of a waste since you already have the wiring for Ethernet. It's also an addition power cord (I don't think the new ones need power adapter... correct me if I'm wrong). Since you are eventually routing traffic across your network, you're only adding another network to the mix. It would be better if your Set Top Boxes, iOS devices and Media Share devices were all on the same network and subnet. With the DECA setup it just exposes a single point of failure and same goes for RVU (even though I prefer to have RVU...

     

    That's why I said it's better.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    litzdog911
    Quote:    Originally Posted by sirkgm14vg 

    If Ethernet ports are disappearing on the new boxes, that's a problem in itself. However, if you only using DECA to switch traffic between the set top boxes, it seems like a little bit of a waste since you already have the wiring for Ethernet. It's also an addition power cord (I don't think the new ones need power adapter... correct me if I'm wrong). Since you are eventually routing traffic across your network, you're only adding another network to the mix. It would be better if your Set Top Boxes, iOS devices and Media Share devices were all on the same network and subnet. With the DECA setup it just exposes a single point of failure and same goes for RVU (even though I prefer to have RVU...

     

    That's why I said it's better.


    You don't understand how DECA works.  First, no extra power cord is required.   Second, because the Whole Home DVR video streaming traffic is carried by the DECA network using the existing satellite coax cables, there is NO network traffic on your home ethernet network.   In your approach the WHDVR network traffic can cause issues with the performance of your home network.   Why take that risk?   It's absolutely NOT true that "it would be better if your set top boxes, .....   were all on the same network", at least not in the case of WHDVR video sharing.   

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    I did indicate that there isn't a extra power cord needed. Initially when DECA was shown to me it did have it. Hence my parenthetical statement... I also indicated that by having the DECA Network you are also using an Ethernet cable to hook this into your network? No? Does one not need your DECA connected to your network to view DVR Playlists on your iPad?

     

    There might not be switched traffic on your home network, but since most people buy a router, which is a switch, router and sometimes access point if they have WiFi the traffic, eventually you will have the DECA on your network, and it will be using layer 3 traffic. I seriously doubt any home DVR system is chatty enough to decrease the performance of one's home network. I could see maybe on a WiFi network, but definitely not on home Ethernet. I can share throughput results for DirecTV Video streaming and there is no way it goes more than Fast Ethernet and definitely not a Gigabit connection.

     

    So to answer the OP's original question, the DirecTV can be wired into a standard IP Network with Ethernet, and still have the same features of Whole-Home without the use of DECAs.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    litzdog911

    Viewing the DVR Playlists on your iPad has nothing to do with Whole Home DVR video streaming.   iPad access is provided by the CCK, which bridges the DECA coax network to your home ethernet network.    

     

    Feel free to believe what you will.  I'll just close by again pointing out the DirecTV does not support using ethernet for Whole Home DVR sharing.  And, as was previously mentioned, some of the newer Receivers don't even have an ethernet port.  

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    I feel like your insistent on just believing what DirecTV lists in the manual. I thought forums in general for sharing information that you might not get in the manual. DirecTV may not support Whole-Home networking without DECA, but that's the same way Comcast or Verizon don't support the Router you hook up at home. Doesn't mean it doesn't work the way I have explained. In fact, iPad Access is not provided by anything. As long as your DVR is on the same network as your iPad you should be able to view the Playlists through the DirecTV app for iPad.

     

    The CCK is a way to connect the DECA Coax setup to your Wireless Network. Which by the way you said the same thing I said, the DECA network eventually is on your home network anyways.

     

    This wasn't about being right or wrong, its about sharing information. And not everyone wants "extra" equipment just because that's the way DirecTV wants you to set it up. The OP knows that it's not supported, but if it works and provides the same end result either way, then I don't see any issue at all... I'm here to help just like you.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    dcd
    Quote:    I don't see any issue at all... I'm here to help just like you.

    You're ignoring the fact that some of the newer boxes don't have an Ethernet port.  Say a user has a system consisting of a HR24 HD DVR and a H24 HD receiver, and both are hard wired to the router and he has a solid working Whole Home system.  Then the H24 blows and Directv CSR sends a replacement and it happens to be a H25.  Ohoh, goodbye Whole Home, the H25 has no Ethernet port.

     

    Now if you as an informed and innovative user wish to take that smallish risk, you're welcome to it.  In fact, one of the guys that wears a icon on these forums runs a router based system.  However, to publish a suggestion that falls outside supported configuration as well as one that has a glaring fault (the possible lack of Ethernet port) then I figure we need to point out the differences to any potential user.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    So be it that the H25 doesn't have an Ethernet port, but I believe it's the minority. I believe, and you correct me if I'm wrong but a majority of the DVRs have an Ethernet port. The Genie HR 34 and 44 both have it... What bothers me the most is that I'm being told I'm incorrect about how the system works. Why should someone come to the forums if they are going to get the same rhetoric as they would in the tech docs...Specifically for this particular post, the OP would like to not use DECA. I do not use DECA. I'm a DirecTV subscriber, I have no issues. All my DVRs have an Ethernet Port. Matter of fact I plan on getting the HR-34 and HR-44, both a believe are newer than the HR-25 and have Ethernet ports.

     

    So I'll go back to what I originally said that networking your DVRs to your home network, without DECA will not impede performance on a Fast Ethernet or Gigabit network.

     

    I'm really taking aback by the fact that knowledge sharing is discouraged...At least that's what I feel I'm getting from you two.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    DirecTV engineers their STB to be Ethernet Ready. The reason why is because the DirecTV Apps and Media Share use standard IP methods for communicating. It's one of the cool things I discovered some years back. What's even more interesting is DirecTV has both IPTV Capability and also uses IP Control. For example if you are in a college dorm, you can actually run DirecTV over IP. This isn't the case at home. Only IP Control is implemented and it's awesome, especially those who have home automation.

     

    So what does that exactly mean? Take a look at this article: http://www.openremote.org/display/knowledge/Controlling+DirecTV+DVR+via+ethernet

     

    Given the DECA Setup where the DirecTV DVRs are on their own network, this might not be as straightforward as having your DVRs wired to your Router or Switched network. However removing the DECA eliminates that and places the devices on the same network. The biggest problem is that network is magic to most folks. Even folks that "know" what they are doing still will get stumped when it doesn't work as expected (that's where the forums come in....). I rather explain to remove the DECA then how to do static routes.

     

    DirecTV uses this same technology to control the DVR via your iPad app by sending HTTP commands with the correctly formed URL.

     

    In the future I'd be sure to explain to folks about advanced setups are unsupported, but I think folks already have gotten "use DECA" from DirecTV CSRs... Maybe they would like to try something else.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    litzdog911

    Just can't let it go, huh sirkgm14vg?   I'm sure the original poster feels fully "educated" now Surprised

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    kaminar
    Quote:    Originally Posted by sirkgm14vg 

    litzdog911 and dcd are correct about not supported. I'll play devils advocate. I do not use DECA. 


    Best to leave the advice to experts who have decades of experience repairing and troubleshooting DECA, MOCA. mesh and many flavors of wired/wireless ethernet. Their main goal is to help resolve issues (as volunteers)..am sure purely theoretical discussion is welcome as a separate thread, but it's just that..theoretical.

     

    -=K=-

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    fpbear

    DirecTV should have some technical explanation of "how DECA works" but I have yet to come across such a guide. It does not make sense to me that if I plug my regular home LAN Ethernet cable into the back of the DVR, that it would disable DECA.

     

    Here is what happened: before I ran a separate Ethernet cable to the home entertainment equipment, I was using the DECA adapter with a switch after it to also provide Internet to my other home theater equipment and home automation system. Then one day recently, the Internet connectivity after the DECA adapter stopped working.

     

    When I unplugged the switch from the back of the DECA adapter, and changed it to use my "normal" LAN cable instead, my AT&T Uverse Internet started working fast again. I wondered why UVerse was mysteriously super slow for months! It turns out, the DECA system was messing up the performance of my entire LAN. The latency was terrible. I guess the DECA must have been multicasting garbage or otherwise malfunctioning to slow my LAN.

     

    Now the DECA adapter still has its Ethernet cable into the back of the second DVR, but the system test indicates the DVR has no Internet connectivity. Despite these problems with the Internet portion of the DECA, I am able to share recordings between the DVRs.

     

    Now here's my dilemma. Since I don't trust the DECA anymore to share Internet traffic with my LAN (because of the performance slowdown it caused) I would like to just plug in my Ethernet cable from my "normal" LAN to the back of the second DVR, rather than use the DECA adapter to provide the Ethernet. But I am hearing that plugging my LAN into the back of the second DVR would disable DECA.

     

    Despite having advanced knowledge of networking (I work in the IT field) I am completely confused by the way DECA interacts with the home LAN. DirecTV really should explain the theoretical underpinnings in some technical guide somewhere.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    fpbear this is exactly what upsets me about the DirecTV Tech Know Guides... They only know what DirecTV recommends which is unfair to say someone like you. Since you and I probably speak the same language let me explain to you what DECA is:

     

    It's a fancy term that DirecTV has dubbed for Coaxial Ethernet. It's the same technology a cable ISP uses to bring Internet into your home. Here's the catch, it's all based off Ethernet and the fundamentals of Ethernet. DirecTV didn't invent DECA or create some new thing. Everything still comes back to fundamental TCP Stack.

     

    So with that being said I'll break down DECA. Coaxial Ethernet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_coax), I hear the Wikipedia Whining already...is allowing chips built into the DirecTV Receives to talk using Ethernet across coaxial. DirecTV says it's required for Whole-Home service because they do not want to support LAN networks, and don't want to worry about low end systems getting bogged down. This typically would not happen, and I don't think is an issue.

     

    Or read this fpbear: http://forums.solidsignal.com/docs/Coax%20Networking%20White%20Paper.pdf

     

    The fact is, most except for a few boxes (1 I have heard so far HR-25) doesn't have an Ethernet Port. I simply think that's because of the footprint of the device. Save space. If you have a setup that can used with Ethernet over RJ-45 you can use that. No additional components needed. It allows you to get even fancier if you want and put the DVRs on their own VLAN and not interfere with your web surfing.

     

    DECA has NOTHING to do with DirecTV. It simply is a device DirecTV would like you to use for Coaxial Ethernet. Since you HAVE Ethernet in your house, just plug you DVR's with Ethernet get rid of the DECA and all problems solved. Might have to reboot your DVRs.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg
    Quote:    Originally Posted by kaminar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sirkgm14vg

    litzdog911 and dcd are correct about not supported. I'll play devils advocate. I do not use DECA.


    Best to leave the advice to experts who have decades of experience repairing and troubleshooting DECA, MOCA. mesh and many flavors of wired/wireless ethernet. Their main goal is to help resolve issues (as volunteers)..am sure purely theoretical discussion is welcome as a separate thread, but it's just that..theoretical.

     

    -=K=-

    This is bunch of "malarky". This folks are volunteers and not DirecTV employees. They are not DirecTV engineers or network engineers or anyone who was part of the developmental process of the systems. They do their part by explaining to folks about how DirecTV can be used, and help correct users where they have may gone astray. I hope they don't tune their cars, because that's against the manufacturers wishes. But just maybe, as a hobby or maybe someone else who is a mechanic has another solution that works just the same or even better then the manufacturer has intended. Sound familiar?

     

    Yes I am frustrated, because this has gone well beyond telling fpbear that you don't need DECA. And he's probably just confused now cause DirecTV knows that you can use the Ethernet otherwise they wouldn't specifically state you can only use DECA. They do mention that you can use Ethernet on your current LAN connection for OnDemand, etc... But the "gateway" or "check" comes when you ask for Whole-Home service, they won't turn it on unless DECA is installed. This does not mean Whole-Home will not work without DECA. 

     

    And the sad part is, I gave dcd and lil respect by saying they are 100% correct and saying that DECA is not supported by DirecTV, but it is not correct that DirecTV DVRs would cause performance issues on your network. Unless you are running 10BASET, but really... who is running that. And the Original Poster had no care about DECA anyways. So I answered his question.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    peds48
    Quote:    Originally Posted by fpbear 

     

     

    Despite having advanced knowledge of networking (I work in the IT field) I am completely confused by the way DECA interacts with the home LAN. DirecTV really should explain the theoretical underpinnings in some technical guide somewhere.


    this is stuff is designed to be installed and service by DirecTV.  customers should not have to mess with it, it you want to mess with it, well then is your job to figure out how it works.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    peds48

    I am running an ALL ethernet WHDVR system and it works, nobody is denying that fact!!!! But I have some reasons why I do it this way… and I am and installer so if it breaks I can fix it and because I am an installer I am not supported al around so it does not matter for me.  for a regular customer who must abide by DirecTV policies if they want their support, this is bad advice.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    fpbear

    Thanks sirkgm14vg, with your explanation I think I finally understand what DECA is now. Perhaps another reason why DirecTV decided to go with Ethernet over coax is because they don't want to have to install a second cable (Ethernet) across everyone's attic. Imagine all the money saved on installation. If your explanation is correct, DECA winds up using the same LAN traffic anyway! If that's the case, DirecTV should also start supporting straight Ethernet for those that have the luxury of having two cables running down the wall.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    What exactly is going to break? I would expect you to have the same issues on DECA or on Ethernet since it's based off the same technology, Ethernet. There is no where in DirecTV Service Agreements that require you to use DECA for Whole-Home service. It is a DirecTV policy enforced to CSRs that they are to provide Whole-Home service activation to home using DECA devices.

     

    http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/support/agreements_policies

     

    Btw there is no such thing as ALL Ethernet or partial, because DECA is a fancy term for Coaxial Ethernet. It's always Ethernet, period.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg
    Quote:    Originally Posted by fpbear

    Thanks sirkgm14vg, with your explanation I think I finally understand what DECA is now. Perhaps another reason why DirecTV decided to go with Ethernet over coax is because they don't want to have to install a second cable (Ethernet) across everyone's attic. Imagine all the money saved on installation. If your explanation is correct, DECA winds up using the same LAN traffic anyway! If that's the case, DirecTV should also start supporting straight Ethernet for those that have the luxury of having two cables running down the wall.


    Correct. They won't support home networks, ever. No one does, because it's too much to train their CSRs on all the different networks. Heck most people on here don't understand networking anyways. So you are 100% Correct DECA devices are provided so that it can use the prexisiting coaxial cable in the house without having to run more cable. Much cheaper, and easier to manage. Plus Coaxial Ethernet actually is more expensive. The cable is more expensive and devices are additional cost ON TOP of the existing network equipment. And in the end, it ends right back on the home owners network anyway.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    tboulter

    Ill just chime in, cause I could be one really irate customer with D* right now given what I have experienced today if I hadnt taken the time to sort all this out myself and not been afraid to try an alternate configuration thx to a couple of really great forums out there...

    I just had whole home installed yesterday. And, from what I have found doing my own troubleshooting since the installers left around 5PM (and before the systems were communicating - btw it is now 3 in the AM here and I am just wrapping up fixing the mess and getting my system to work especially after doing so much reading and research on how this system is supposed to work) is: I was left with a network loop that took my entire network down, after removing the BBA/DECA and going back to the Ethernet ports on the back of my H21 and H23 I was finally able to get everything working. And one of the installers was a 14 year vet, not some new kid.


    Just for the record: my network includes a Cat6 network/24 port Gig switch/newly upgraded 60Mb internet circuit, and I run 3 servers, a mulitmedia/streaming server, and multiple clients as I also run my business out of my home, kids streaming Netflix, PS3, etc: and I have had no lag between DVRs nor any slowdowns in VOD with this configuration so far. Unlike the state it was left in by the installers, where my entire network was shutting down to all traffic and there was no connectivity between the boxes even when that problem was solved.

     

    Honestly, I am considering removing the DECAs from the two receivers all-together. If Im not mistaken, the SWiM itself will take care of the single cable pull/two tuner issue and so in theory the DECAs are not required. Ill experiment with that tomorrow, but correct me if Im wrong here. But from what Im seeing, its just another dongle that generates heat and (at least in my configuration) has no use, except the possibility on the HR-21 that it doubles as the B-band adapter...I still havent found a definitive answer out there if this is handled by the new SWiM and Multiswitch, or by the DECA, so thats still part of the upcoming experiment also.

    While troubleshooting I called D* at least 4 times, and out of that got only one person who actually understood the technology enough to not only have a conversation about it, but was fascinated that it was working so well being now installed 'out of spec' and through the original Ethernet jacks. She is also sending me out the band-stop filters that I was not supplied with the two R16-300s they brought out. But the conversation with her is what leads me to believe I dont need the DECAs at all, since she was the one who told me when the filters arrive to remove the DECAs from the R16s that were installed by the installers, and explained that the SWiM took care of everything as far as the tuners/single cable issue.

    But - I can say that with the DECAs and the BBA/DECA installed, even after I discovered the network loop left behind by the installers, I have not been able to get either of my receivers to get a working IP address from my DHCP server, or see each other at all when I use D*s 'installation guidelines', yet when I go back to the Ethernet port on both boxes, even with D* telling me "its not supported", everything including whole-home works flawlessly. So, I am not sold on DECA over just a good Ethernet switch and quality cabling myself. And, the other advantage is not having to add another 5 port Gig switch in the bedroom, I can go back to using the 2nd Ethernet port for jumpering to my blu-ray player again, so another switch, wall wart, and couple of cables I dont need to purchase.

    I understand D* not wanting to 'support' more than one solution because not everyone out there - in fact most end users - arent 'tech savvy' to ny degree (although with wired/wireless/etc I think there are already 3 listed on their installation site and D*s techs still have trouble keeping them separated), just like I understand most Internet providers giving you a modem/router, but if you want a more advanced setup after they put their equipment into 'bridged' mode its on you to make your stuff work: but for those of us with a little more troubleshooting skills and a working knowledge of the baseline, there is no reason not to utilize some of these more 'advanced' work-arounds: especially when the prescribed solution that was installed DOES NOT WORK. I dont need to hang around my house for multiple days waiting on different techs to come out and keep experimenting until they get it working, its working now, and working great.

    And just to throw another thought into the mix: DVR to DVR adds no more traffic to your internal network than does streaming from Netflix or the like from external: as a matter of fact its less work for your network, especially when you have a routed switch on your network, because in effect its still theoretically just streaming MPEG2/4 format between two internal IP addresses. So the argument that "it offloads to the coax E network" really isnt all that big a deal. Sure: in theory you are basically isolating that traffic to the equivalent of a dedicated network segment via the coax, but even streaming, if the traffic is switched properly, on a Cat5/6 100Mb or Gig network, there is not that much impact on your network traffic. And theoretically it also removes a 'hop' when streaming to ipad, pc, etc from your DVR, so arguably there is another advantage: although again in practice its probably negligible.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    tboulter

    Just another thought, I do have one theory why the BBA/DECA in my configuration refuses to allow traffic or let the DVRs get IP addresses, and that is that these DECAs were designed for consumer-level networking equipment, which is usually 10/100/half. Ive seen a similar situation before with hooking up a Cisco Pix to certain providers broadband modems...auto negotiation fails, or configures incorrectly. Since my configuration is working now without the BBA/DECA its not a hot item to troubleshoot, but since theres so little documentation on these things it might be an interesting theory to test if I get time one afternoon and feel like reconfiguring back to the D* recommended setup.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    tboulter this is what I've been trying to explain the DirecTV Tech Know Guides, but they just stoop to same banter every time I bring this up. I also am dumbfounded by the fact that the CSC's are in awe that it works without they way its "supposed" to be done according to DirecTV. Which is two things. Lack of understanding, and basic Level 1 read and regurgitate information.

     

    I'm my own enemy when it comes to this, because of my engineering background. I look at a lot of things in the electronics world condescendingly when they label technology that is simply a standard. It's the fancy bottle of water... It's still H20 molecule. It has the same properties as any other water molecule.

     

    From what I can tell, the DECA switches are simply doing NAT on their own circuit. Then forwarding outbound traffic to the router with an IP that the DECA switch ascertains. Either way it's just coaxial broadband. But I wanted to explain what the effects are on a switched network.

     

    Since the boxes use multicast to send information, you will get a lot of broadcast domain requests so switches on your network should get real chatty. In your particular case, you have one switch with copper going to each host on your network. In my case, each room has a punch and drop down into a patch panel in the basement. From there I patch a cable to the main switch. In each room is a simple unmanaged switch. This allows me to avoid a lot of collisions.

     

    I don't have to explain this to you, but it should be represented in the forums so that others can try it own their own.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    tboulter

    Im glad you saw this, as it was your discussions that prompted me writing my replies. The OP asked if it was possible, there is no reason not to give him all the info from our collective experiences, so he can make an educated decision. Think about it - the poster who discussed the Uverse slowdowns...D* is not going to troubleshoot that problem on a network, nor will they admit its their equip that's causing the problem: mainly because they don't know enough about it. Something interesting I came across while researching all of this: DECAs are not unique to D*. So - they are just buying and branding a solution. And IT 101: no two networks are exactly alike. But your field techs are not Network engineers...nor are most of your CSRs that you speak to on the phone.

    You are partially correct on my network, lol, but no: all my drops also go to a patch panel and to a managed Gig-E switch from there. One room has a remote switch, because of all the gear that needs drops, but even it is fibred back to a dedicated port on my managed switch and is manageable. Yeah I went overboard when we bought the house and dropped Cat and Fiber to every room: but those were the days when most installations were still Cat 3, Cat5 was brand new, and no one knew where things were going: fiber was the buzz word of the day, and speculation was that everything would be fiber in the next 5 years.

    Funniest part of the convo with the one CSR who I talked to that understood networking was: "you know, you are going to have to go through a long explination if they ever have to service your equipment, or they may refuse to service it..."

    Funny, but also kind of upset me: and Ill tell you why. My network is my business: my bread and butter. The installers couldn't make it work: even I couldn't make it work as advertised. But: here is where it gets my goat: an 'entertainment' company is going to dictate to me how something needs to be installed on my network, even though 1. They wont service my network, 2. they shut my network down, and 3. they cant get it to work!

    Insult to injury is knowing that I could have easily just bought a SWiM, installed it myself, and everything would have worked fine...****, even the SWiM might not have been necessary, but it did give me 2 tuners in the bedrooms where I only have 1 drop and have never had that before. BUT: Even with knowing this: they would have REFUSED to simply push the button to turn on the service because their installers hadn't been out first!

    Also upsets me that, in the big picture, I had to re-up for 24 months to get this service installed and activated, and Im (willingly) paying 3 bucks more a month for it, and yet their techs couldn't make it work, nor were they necessary. And - Ive been a D* customer for nearly 15 years: I haven't been under a single contract in well over 10 of those years. But - I had to re-up for 24 months just to get someone to push a button to activate a service? Sorry, but in the big picture, that really does irk me. Especially seeing what this service as advertised did to my network.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    tboulter

    Oh, and yes...before someone points this out: I realize they brought out two R16s with them to make this work with the new SWM (and that's why the installer said I had to re-up): but I pay for the Protection Plan: if one of my old standard def receivers failed, they would just send me out a new one...most likely the same R16. So - upgrade on equipment? I don't think so. If they would have brought me out two replacement HD DVRs, that could wwshare and were an upgrade in the sense, then I could swallow this point. But - not on the standard def for standard def for the ones that aren't sharing right now. Protection plan alone would have covered these if I had simply called and told them they weren't working. (BTW: the old units were an original Huges Tivo and an early model R15...so yeah, I don't think they would have done a direct model swap).

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    tboulter

    oh yeah sirkgm14vg...did some more research on the DECAs and my guess is that its a little simpler than that on the DECA...all the DECA is simply, is a Coax to Ethernet converter, not a 'switched ' port or network in itself. Coax to RJ adapters are pretty common devices. From what I can gather, the way its 'supposed' to work, the receivers jumper the Ethernet port to the DECA, but the receivers still control traffic and IP addressing. The only reason the BBA DECA is different is, because it requires a power adapter since it has no other way to get power. But, it is still more or less a passive device. The only thing I can not find any specs on why it seems to multicast, or in the least blast the entire network in this config vs just utilizing straight RJ to the same switch port. Im sure it has something to do with not being a switch but a 'hub' (yeah, I hear 1993 calling), but it still surprises me that it (the coax network) puts out that much noise.
    I did do a bit of experimentation this evening with the BBA attached to my managed switch, and was able to isolate the broadcast traffic out of that single port, but its also broadcasting (or blasting) more than what my router multicast filter reads as "multicast traffic", so my guess is most home-user equipment would not be able to completely filter these blasts. I could get it to quiet down on my switch, but I didn't go far enough to see exactly what information (port, type, etc) was being blasted.
    And, a hub network is never going to be as efficient as a switched network, by nature its all multicast traffic, so this also kind of kills the earlier argument I read that "keeping this traffic on the coax network is more efficient"...just the opposite is true: keeping it off your RJ network is a good thing if its all multicast, but a fully switched network will always outperform a broadcast hub, so the truth is on any good RJ 100Mb network even with other network traffic the entire WW system is going to work better. Now: DECA vs Wireless A/B/G/N? Other factors to consider but for the most part even this is better, if you have the bandwidth available, MTU adjusted properly, etc.

    And that kind of all makes sense, since the ports on the Receivers themselves ARE switch ports with logic, so they are doing their own filtering and some routing at each device on a hub-network, but the traffic itself is just broadcast traffic.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    sirkgm14vg

    The multicast is by design/standard. Its because the tech higher-up on the TCP/IP stack is using it (DLNA and IP Control). Also if you look through my previous posts on this thread you will see I posted a guide I found online about DirecTV Networking.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    gr8ful2u2

    Yes, many people do not use DECA. In fact, if you can plug in gigabit Ethernet, you're performance will be better.

     

    See here for a nicely done performance test.

     

    The only advantage to DECA is if you need to pass internet through your cable wiring.

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    bigmark0272

    If you plug an Ethernet cable into the DVR it will kill your whole home.

    • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
      snoking

      Don't tell my two Whole Home networks that, they will most likely stop working.

       

      As a matter of fact they REALLY say that about the HR34 Genie!!! Will not work on Ethernet directly, whole home will shutdown.

       

      Yesterday my H21-200 was getting pixelisation and the Genie has been having a lot of playback issues with pixelisation, so!!!!

       

      I found the Deca on the H21-200 very hot and just removed it. Whole Home marched right along without it. The H21-200 is working without pixelisation! We will see if this change helps with the HR34-700 Genie's known playback issues. Some claim disconnecting the CCK fixes it.

       

      So fast forward a hour and I decided to plug the ethernet straight into the Genie and take the CCK out of service.

       

      Guess what Whole Home still works and the Genie has network connectivity to mother Directv's home in the sky! Both units are on one of my two WiFi Router/Switches. Actually the down stream one. The up stream router has the DSL connection to the internet. They is no reason for the Whole Home Traffic to cross to the upstream switch. These two WiFi routers are 65 feet apart in a rambler house, So I have good coverage throughout the house.

       

      I ordered a Band Stop Filter to put on the Genie's coax.

       

      Prior to the Genie I ran Whole Home on my ethernet with HR23-700's for several years. And only bought into these Deca stuff because of the mistake of taking an upgrade to the Genie, which has been a very troublesome box.

       

      Oh yeah, I am a retired computer network design engineer from a very large bank!

       

      Chris

      • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
        dcd

        This thread is old and you folks really should start a new one.  Just to assist you in keeping your facts straight.  A HR34 or HR44 Genie has different circuitry to their Ethernet port and will work properly if a Ethernet cable is connected directly from the port to a router.  All of the HR2X DVR's will not, attaching a cable will disable Whole Home DVR.  This entire thread is full of incorrect info and half truths.  Some of the posters obviously were debating issues about which there is no question.

        • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
          snoking

          Guess you have never tried it and you seem to be busy drinking the Deca Cool-aid!

           

          It did not however fix the crummy Genie HR34-700 pixelization problems with NBC out of Seattle!

           

          I am about to demand to trade the Genie and H21-200 in for two HR23-700's! It is a bit ridiculous after a year that they can not fix this issue. DTV - Put the Genie back in the bottle!!!! 

           

          Chris

  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    àèìòù

    The one word answer to your original question... "NO".

    DECA is not needed for whole home.

     

    The one thousand word answers you've gotten to your original question... "BUT..."

     

    Each side presents valid arguments... and a whole lot of personal beliefs, but one thing that can be agreed upon is that if you decide to go the non-DECA Ethernet route, you're on your own.

    You better know what you're doing, and if you have to ask, maybe you do, maybe you don't.

     

    I've chosen to go the non-DECA Ethernet route, or rather, I have decided to CONTINUE my non-DECA Ethernet route.

     

    My current configuration actually precludes the integration of DECA.

    I have an attic-installed OTA antenna which is diplexed into both sides of E2-expanded dual-SWM8's.

    There is nothing preventing me from discontinuing diplexing OTA so that I can integrate DECA.

    I can still supply OTA to each DVR, however I'll need to do so via separate coaxes.

    It is a personal choice based upon what I need and prefer.

    The trade decision is also affected by "if it ain't broke,..."

    The current configuration is a product of what was available at the various times that I added/expanded system capabilities.

    The single coax integrated 5LNB SWM dishes came after the four coax that I installed.

    The non-OTA diplexed SWM16 came after the SWM8 that I installed and before the E2 and second SWM8 I added to expand to 16 tuners.

    The DECA/MOCA came after the Ethernet I installed for VOD/apps.

     

    I have everything I need and want so I don't intend to change anything, but as components start to fail, I intend to gradually convert.

    Some neighbors who have or are considering DirecTV have voiced a preference for my setup, over the one that DirecTV provides, and a few have asked if I would be willing to help them set up theirs.

    Rather than say no, I have given them a block diagram and sent them on their way.

    If they can figure it out, then they can probably setup and maintain it.

    If they can't, I'm not going to set it up because:

    1) If I were doing mine today, from scratch, I would NOT duplicate what I have.

    2) Who do you think they're going to call when it doesn't work?

    I don't blame DirecTV for their stance, it's completely understandable.

     

    You do have a choice..

    "BUT,...  As I said, you're on your own."


  • Re: Is the DECA needed for Whole Home when I already have Ethernet?
    roomraider

    Whoever said this thread should be killed is wrong, a lot of people like myself have stumbled upon it & found the answer to the problem so many face.

     

    Carry on!