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Tuesday, October 11th, 2011 8:29 PM

Surge through HD receiver via HDMI cable damaged HDTV 55 inch

It was raining a lot last night woke up around 0230 due to some crackling noise, went by the TV got a strong odor of something had burnt it came from the HD receiver, than also noticed on my VIZIO HDTV it had a white glow right on the logo that only comes on when the TV is on otherwise when off its an orange glow, that was strange since both units were off, anyway after trying for an hour nothing came on,  gave up, called VIZIO service this morning they told me a since I had a surge protectoe on my AC cables and also I had six other components on it and nothing else got damaged the only way the TV got hit was through a surge from the HD receiver satellite cables which in turn went into the HDMI cable, So right now my year and a half TV and HD receiver is done, receiver has warranty but not the TV, Is this a DIRECTV issue.

ACE - Professor

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2K Messages

14 years ago

And of course "THEY" told you this over the phone! What a crock -Have you tried connecting any other cables from the HDDVR to any other port on the TV? Suggest you try that and see if anything changes. componet cables and audio cables will give the same picture quailty as HDMI.

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*I am not a DIRECTV employee, and the views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

ACE - Expert

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14.1K Messages

14 years ago

No, it's not a DirecTV issue.  Over the years we've seen a number of reports of HDMI interfaces both on DirecTV (and cable) boxes, and the corresponding interfaces on the TV, being damaged by lightning strikes. The problem is usually compounded by poor grounding; the dish, DirecTv box and TV all need to be grounded to the same point to avoid current flow between them.

What is true is that HDMI interfaces seem to be more prone to this problem than any others.  But if you get a close lightning strike, there is nothing you can do to prevent this problem. Surge protectors won't guarantee protection against lightning close to the house, the protectors are pretty good reducing surges in the power cables caused by "distant" lightning, but as I have posted before, the only real protection against lightning is a home protection system with lightning rods, with the dish inside the protected zone.

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Mentor

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36 Messages

14 years ago

Quote: Originally Posted by pricelow 

they told me a since I had a surge protectoe on my AC cables and also I had six other components on it and nothing else got damaged the only way the TV got hit was through a surge from the HD receiver satellite cables which in turn went into the HDMI cable,

 

 Damage is when you all but invite lightning inside a house.  Nothing stops a surge.  Especially not a protector adjacent to the TV.  Effective protection means direct lightning strikes do not cause damage. Do not even enter a building. You all but invited that surge inside to go hunting.

 

  Effective protection is not a 2 centimeter part inside a protector to stop what three miles of sky could not.  Effective protection does not claim a protector's hundreds of joules somehow stops and absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.  Those myths are widely believed.  Then so many assume direct lightning strikes will always do damage.  Many install a protector that does not claim to protect from destructive surges. Then assume nothing can stop a surge.

 

  A protector without the always required short connection to earth does not claim to protect from any typically destructive surge - as you have seen.

 

  Lightning seeks earth ground.  Either earth it harmlessly outside. Or (as you saw) it was inside hunting for earth destructively via all appliances.  A lightning strike to wires far down the street is a direct lightning strike to every appliance.  Which ones are damaged?  An appliance that makes a better connection to earth. Surges hunt for earth.  For example, incoming on AC mains.  Via the Vizio.  Outgoing via the HDMI port via satellite dish equipment. If both the incoming and outgoing path do not exist, then the Vizio was not damaged.

 

  First a surge passes simultaneously through everything in that path.  Much later, one or only a few items in that path are damaged.  In your case, lightning may have been incoming via everything.  But only a TV made a best connection to earth.  In all cases, damage is directly traceable to a homeowner who does not install well proven protection. Who did not learn what was well understood even 100 years ago.  Who spent tens or 100 times more money on a protector that does not even claim to do that protection.

 

  Your telco's computer, connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm.  How often is your town without phone service for four days after every storm?  Why do they not replace surge damaged computers?  Because even direct lightning strikes cause no damage when energy is connected to earth BEFORE entering a building. Informed homeowners also do that.

 

  Earthing products from more responsible manufacturers such as General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, ABB, Siemens, and Leviton.   A Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

 

  Every incoming wire (telephone, cable, dish, AC electric) must connect to a single point earth ground before entering.  If any one is not, than all protection is compromised.  Is your dish earthed?  Is a coax wire from that dish earthed again where it enters the building?  Are all AC electric wires also connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that same earthing electrode?  Does a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco also connect just as short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same earth ground?

 

  Some AC wires cannot connect direct to earth. So a ‘whole house’ protector connects those other wires to earth. If any one wire enters without a short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) earthing connection, then no protection exists.  Every wire must be earthed before entering.

 

  No protector does protection.  Protection is provided by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.  View manufacturer spec numbers on that existing protector.  How many joules does that protector claim to absorb?  Not a rhetorical question.  A question you always answer with its numbers.  How does it make energy disappear?  It doesn't.  It protects only from surges that are typically not destructive. And it sometimes makes surge damage easier.

 

  Protectors from more responsible manufacturers connect hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly to earth.  Either energy is inside hunting for earth destructively via your Vizio.  And you had no protection.  Or that energy is outside.  Earthed before energy could go hunting inside the building.  Telcos all over the world suffer maybe 100 surges with each thunderstorm.  And no damage.  You may suffer one surge every seven years.  Due to no protection, you had damage on a first surge.

Tutor

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11 Messages

14 years ago




The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:

- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits"  published by the IEEE in 2005
And also:

- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home"  published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The NIST guide suggests that most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires.


Originally Posted by westom
Damage is when you all but invite lightning inside a house.  Nothing stops a surge.  Especially not a protector adjacent to the TV.


Westom doesn't believe plug-in protectors work.

Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.

Protectors do not work by "stopping" a surge.

 
Originally Posted by westom
  Effective protection is not a 2 centimeter part inside a protector to stop what three miles of sky could not.  Effective protection does not claim a protector's hundreds of joules somehow stops and absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.  Those myths are widely believed.


Myths are created by westom.

The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the energy that is absorbed in a plug-in protector with branch circuits of 10m and longer and up to the maximum power line surge that has any reasonable probability of occurring (from a 100,000A strike to an adjacent utility pole in typical urban overhead distribution). The maximum energy at the plug-in protector was 35 joules.  In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. It is one reason some, properly connected, protectors have protected equipment warranties.


Originally Posted by westom
 Then so many assume direct lightning strikes will always do damage.   Many  install a protector that does not claim to protect from destructive surges.   Then assume nothing can stop a surge.


More nonsense. 

Manufacturers certainly clam protection. Some even have protected equipment warranties.

 
Originally Posted by westom
  A protector without the always required short connection to earth does not claim to protect from any typically destructive surge - as you have seen.


And more nonsense.

Plug-in protectors do not protect primarily by earthing a surge. The IEEE surge guide explains, for anyone who can read and think, that plug-in protectors primarily protect by limiting the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. (Read the guide starting page 30.)

If using plug-in protectors all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in protector. All external connections, like dish, also need to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the protector prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. Was the equipment connected this way? In particular, did external coax go through the plug-in protector?


Originally Posted by westom
  Earthing products from more responsible manufacturers such as General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, ABB, Siemens, and Leviton.   A Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.


All these manufacturers but SquareD also make plug-in protectors that westom says don't work.
For its ‘best’ service panel suppressor SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [surge protector] at the point of use."

A service panel protector is a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?

A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

That is because a service panel protector does not limit high voltage between power and signal wires.

 
Originally Posted by westom
  Every incoming wire (telephone, cable, dish, AC electric) must connect to a single point earth ground before entering.  If any one is not, than all protection is compromised.  Is your dish earthed?  Is a coax wire from that dish earthed again where it enters the building?  Are all AC electric wires also connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that same earthing electrode?  Does a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco also connect just as short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to the same earth ground?


A "single point ground" with short ground wires from entry protectors to a common connection point is an important element of protection and is covered in the IEEE surge guide. Cable companies do not always competently make this connection. Dish installers are even worse.  If entry points are distant a short ground wire is not possible and the IEEE surge guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector"

==============================================
gf180 has good troubleshooting advice.

I agree with texasbrit that lightning rods are required for protection from a direct strike to the house. Usually uncommon, but maybe Ft Lauderdale....  With a plug-in protector the immediate ground for the equipment is at the protector. A "single point ground" greatly helps to eliminate problems.


ACE - Expert

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14.1K Messages

14 years ago

Last year here in my subdivision we had two houses burn to the ground because of lightning strikes.  I had never seen lightning like this until I came to live in Texas, but since then I have seen similar in Oklahoma and Florida.

In general I agree with bud's post. Surge protectors on power cables are a good idea, but you really need a protector at the service panel, and as he says, a single grounding point is really important in preventing surges going to ground from one piece of equipment to another.  But I will say it again, surge protectors will NOT guarantee to protect your equipment against a lightning strike on or close to the house.  They can be very effective in protecting your equipment against surges caused by the power companies' circuit breakers popping in and out when the power lines are struck by lightning

Award for Community Excellence Achiever*
*I am not a DIRECTV employee, and the views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Teacher

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25 Messages

14 years ago

westom leaves the bluray.com forum and comes here...here we go again

Mentor

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36 Messages

14 years ago

Quote: Originally Posted by texasbrit 

 But I will say it again, surge protectors will NOT guarantee to protect your equipment against a lightning strike on or close to the house.  They can be very effective in protecting your equipment against surges caused by the power companies' circuit breakers popping in and out when the power lines are struck by lightning

 

 

 

Surges seek earth ground.   A surge may use your building as a connection to earth.  Lightning rods connect that energy harmlessly to earth.  Energy not conducted destructively through wood (and other structural materials) does not cause damage.  Building protection is not done by the lighting rod.  Protection is about where energy dissipates.  Harmlessly in earth on a path that stays outside the building.  A lightning rod is only as effective as the quality of and connection to its earth ground.

 

  A surge may use appliances as a connection to earth.  So a protector that connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') connects that energy harmlessly to earth.  Energy not conducted destructively through appliances does not cause damage.  Appliance protection is not done by any miracle box inside the house.  Protection is about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.  Harmlessly in earth on a path that stays outside the building. A protector is only as effective as the quality of and connection to single point earth ground.

 

  Lightning striking a building will conduct destructively through that building.  Lightning striking utility wires far down the street will conduct destructively  through household appliances.  Solution in both cases is always about keeping that energy outside.  Is always about where that energy dissipates.

 

The only effective lightning rod (pointed or blunt) is defined by its earthing. Earthing is also why the IEEE defined a ‘whole house’ protector as only 99,5% effective. Lightning rods and protectors without that dedicated connection to better earthing will not provide effective protection.

 

Tutor

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11 Messages

13 years ago

Originally Posted by texasbrit  
 But I will say it again, surge protectors will NOT guarantee to protect your equipment against a lightning strike on or close to the house.  They can be very effective in protecting your equipment against surges caused by the power companies' circuit breakers popping in and out when the power lines are struck by lightning


Certainly not protect from a direct strike to a house, but that is uncommon.

Everything I have read is that a service panel protector can protect from a very near lightning strike. The IEEE surge guide references the maximum likely strike as 10,000A per hot wire. That is based on a 100,000A strike to a utility pole adjacent to a house. That is for practical purposes a worst case. Service panel protectors with much higher ratings than 10,000A are readily available. They are likely to provide protection for anything connected to only power wires.

And, as I wrote, even with no service panel protector, and a 10,000A practical worst case surge on power wires, the amount of energy at a plug-in protector is surprisingly small. (There are a couple reasons if anyone is interested.) Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. With high ratings they are likely to protect from a very near severe lightning strike IF they are connected correctly. That is why some plug-in protectors can have protected equipment warranties.
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Originally Posted by westom
A lightning rod is only as effective as the quality of and connection to its earth ground.


Westom has a earthing fetish. All lightning rod systems are earthed.

A lightning rod system is only as effective as the rods being positioned to provide protection, including as texasbrit said the "dish inside the protected zone".

In a large building a lot of the protection is the structural steel providing a path around you.


Originally Posted by westom
 A protector is only as effective as the quality of and connection to single point earth ground.


Airplanes are hit by lightning rather regularly. According to westom they drag an earthing chain ("less than 10 feet") or are crashing.

Repeating:
Plug-in protectors do not protect primarily by earthing a surge. The IEEE surge guide explains, for anyone who can read and think, that plug-in protectors primarily protect by limiting the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. (Read the guide starting page 30.)

Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective.


Originally Posted by westom
The only effective lightning rod (pointed or blunt) is defined by its earthing.   Earthing is also why the IEEE defined a ‘whole house’ protector as only 99,5% effective.


Repeating from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

That is because a service panel protector does not limit high voltage between power and signal wires. The NIST surge guide suggests that most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires.


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